Paget Kagy
Paget Kaget on fulfilling your creative spirit and just doing while embracing flaws and challenges. Jason Lin and Paget Kagy have a conversation about the journey into writing, acting and producing.
EPISODE SUMMARY
Paget Kaget on fulfilling your creative spirit and just doing while embracing flaws and challenges. Jason Lin and Paget Kagy have a conversation about the journey into writing, acting and producing. What it means to be Asian American today and why we should celebrate all the different paths to discover how we express our creativity.
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EPISODE NOTES
Actor/Writer/Singer. Paget Kagy is an actress and writer living in LA. She’s starred in CRIMINAL MINDS, SCANDAL, SHAMELESS and national commercials for brands like Google, Apple, AT&T, Toshiba/Intel, etc. She grew up in Los Angeles, and went to college at UC Berkeley where she joined the jazz singing group on campus and fell in love with performing arts and discovered Theatre Rice, where she immersed herself in sketch comedy, acting, and writing. It was one of the best experiences of her life. She graduated and moved back down to LA to pursue her creative career. In 2017, she wrote, produced, and starred in a romantic comedy webseries called “Kat Loves LA” featuring Asian American actors as leads. Contributing positive representations of Asian Americans in the media has been one of her lifelong goals, and she is proud to produce and publish content that progresses these media portrayals while entertaining and engaging audiences from all cultural backgrounds. After the success of Season 1, she went on to produce a 2nd season that can be watched here. She is currently developing several scripts.
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Please note that this transcript is generated from AI. I have attempted to edit, however, I'm just getting started and this is not exact. Please listen to the episode rather than read this transcript. Transcript provided as a test.
Hello and welcome to episode two of The Linsider. Today. I have Paget Kagy. Paget is a writer, creator, and actress who has appeared in TV shows like SHAMELESS, CRIMINAL MINDS and BIG SHOT. Paget grew up in a Korean American household in Los Angeles and went to UC Berkeley, where she got her acting bug. After seeing challenges in the industry for Asian-Americans. She went on to create, produce and star in an Asian American led romantic comedy web series called KAT LOVES LA, that was successfully crowdfunded for two seasons. She's currently working on more Asian-American stories and writing while continuing to pursue her acting career. I am going to bring on Paget now. Hello?
Hey, how are you?
I am glad to have you with me today and my goal for this podcast is really just to have casual conversations with my friends in the industry. My friends have a very interesting and unique cross-cultural perspective of the entertainment industry that I find lacking both onscreen lacking in news. I find lacking in meetings and conversations that I have around town when I'm taking meetings. And so this is really more for me to get to know my friends better and to get our voice out there and to talk about things that we want to see more of.
I'm excited and flattered. This will be fun.
To get started tell me a little bit about yourself.
The intro and you summed it up. I'm from a Korean American family in Los Angeles. I went to a predominantly white high school, a very small high school Malibu High. Then graduated, went to UC Berkeley, which was a total shift when you're talking about being a different kind of environment, right? Like all of a sudden it went from I'm one of two Asian people in my year to being surrounded by people who look like you. And that was a culture shock in a really great way. It was interesting because when I got there, it was like, You know, okay. I feel more comfortable just like inherently more comfortable in my skin because there are people who look like you. But then when I tried to, you know, socially interact with those groups of people and I, you know, joined like an Asian-American community service fraternity. I realized, wait a second, there is this cultural gap between me and a lot of Asian-Americans who grew up in a mostly Asian American community. And it was, it was interesting because I felt a little out of place in that respect too . I felt just generally more comfortable with myself and I only realized that when I went to UC Berkeley, I didn't realize like how uncomfortable I was constantly in high school until I felt comfortable at UC Berkeley. So that was really interesting actually, like, I guess turning point to some degree. And you know Asian American representation too. I come from a family where I was always made very, very aware that Asian Americans weren't represented properly. My dad, he started the first Asian American magazine. Just trying to put out positive images of Asian Americans, like as opposed to just the images of them, you know, in Chinatown somewhere like just, I don't know, like, you know, he was trying to show that Asian Americans are American, right. We're not just like alien that just got dropped off in America. And like, we just like, you know are looked at in a certain way. SIXTEEN CANDLES is a horrible example of media representation and that stuff really drove him crazy so he started that. And so I was very, very aware of it, like hyper aware of it when I was younger, even though strangely I grew up in a white community, which don't quite understand why that happened, but but I mean, I guess that kind of formulates a lot of my perspectives, right. When I think about Asian America and America .
I want to respond to what you said because it's interesting. I grew up in a very Asian part of the Silicon Valley and it became Asian during my childhood. And so it went from I was out of a class of 30, maybe five Asian kids. When I graduated high school, it was around 40 or 50% Asian. Oh, wow. Geez. And you and I both went to Berkeley at different times, but I would say, you know, the beautiful thing that I realized at Berkeley is that I had Asian friends who had all sorts of perspectives and came from all parts of Asian America, right. There are people like you, there were people like me that had grown up with a plurality of Asian Americans. I even had some friends who were born in the U S but because of where they lived, they didn't have to use English much. They grew up, they were born in the us and grew up here, but have a slight accent. I loved, I love seeing that. These life experiences inform some of the things that I want to see more of on screen or talked about, because you don't hear these things being talked about, but it's so awesome that this entire spectrum of people and experiences . There's a lot of diversity especially among Asian-Americans, but it's never discussed because it's stereotyped. Right? So it's this or that, like you were saying, like Chinatown. It's interesting that you say you didn't realize how uncomfortable you were in high school until you went to college . I would say that is like a great realization to have, but maybe all of us go through that because college, especially Berkeley is such a shock.
Yeah. I mean, it definitely doesn't represent like the normal demographic of America. Right. It was, I was so relieved. And what you said where it was a shock, right? I didn't actually know why I felt more comfortable strangely, even though I mean, hello, it's like 40% Asian, but I actually never really understood why I felt better and more comfortable and more accepted. That was another thing is that I felt as though people received me differently when I went to college. Not that I was the most unpopular kid in high school, but I was received much, much differently when I went to college. It was almost like, I felt like people were more warm, they were more welcoming. They actually had a higher opinion of me socially. And it was something where in high school I felt as though I was always on the defensive . It's like they're going to say something to me about being Asian. They're going to say, go back to China. I always felt on the defense. I had to prove myself to other people, not necessarily my Americanness, but I just had to prove myself. And I just thought that that is just the way society works. You just have to struggle and prove that you belong and you're accepted. And I didn't even realize that, put it together that it was because I looked different. But then when I went to Berkeley, I was like, Oh my God, I don't have to defend myself. Like I can actually just let my hair down. It is one of those things where I felt like people actually would come up to me and start talking to me. Whereas in high school, it wasn't my experience. It was just so much easy to socialize. I hate being blunt about it, but if you are among a whole bunch of white kids, White kids are probably going to prefer to hang out, right. They're not going to like go out of their way to hang out with the foreign looking kid, even if she presents and speaks fully Americanized. It just, there is that strange barrier. And I never realized that that existed until I went to college.
You're getting into some juicy stuff. A few reactions, what you just said. Like, I almost feel like there's a very interesting version of KAT LOVES LA where it's her high school years.
Yes.
Like kind of what you mentioned, and that version, it wouldn't be dating but it's a coming of age and that's real. And a lot of the things that you mentioned. I think you can tackle a lot of interesting issues there. It goes to another point where in terms of growing up, you don't realize, but there's all micro aggressions when you're Asian. It's funny how even to this day I still experience it. I don't think I realized it as much, or I thought it was a regular part of growing up . I still get people telling me that my English is excellent . Which is very interesting . They're usually white. Definitely older people, but it's people around Hollywood. I've gotten I think in, in my entire, working career . A lot of my working career, I was working in China, so they see me being Chinese. And so I speak english. And then, they're like, Oh, your English is excellent. But then I got it. Even here when I moved back to LA . And maybe it's because I was working at Alibaba, which is a Chinese company, I would say no matter what, it's odd that people feel that they have to express that because. It's like, when you tell me these stories of your childhood experience and growing up, and then I compare it to like what I saw in Berkeley my reaction is well, awesome. Right? Like you just have people that come from different experiences that, and isn't that so cool. But then there are folks that they want to really point out that difference.
When you were growing up, what were your favorite movies or TV shows or pop culture like music, what did you love and enjoy?
Oh my gosh. Well well music, of course, I went through the Spice Girls and the Britney Spears and the Christina Aguilera and all that. In high school, a lot of hip hop . I was super into rap and hip hop. Movies, I loved like all girls of a certain age, I love the romantic comedies. I loved BRIDGET JONES'S DIARY, you know, the sex in the city, those things. And actually that's exactly why I created KAT LOVES LA is because I watched those films growing up and I love them so much. And I was like, but I could never, but is that an experience I can have because. I don't look like any of these people, all these people are like these white women. I'm like, so, but w but I can relate to that on a human level, but like, how come I never see that on the screen? Is it because people like me can't experience things like that, or, you know, it was just one of those things where I really had to ask myself, like, when I, and also when I was younger, I would write not scripts or anything. I was just write diary stuff, and stories. And when I would write a story, That I would want to, you know, kind of like imagine for myself, I was always stuck. I, it was so interesting. I was always stuck on this one point when I first wrote, when I first started writing the story, I was like describing the main character. And I never knew what to put as the person's race, because I was like, I almost couldn't imagine a story where the main lead female character was Asian. It was the weirdest thing so I would almost. As someone who's writing something private for myself, I would almost put like white, you know, because I'm like, there's no way an Asian person could, I don't know. I couldn't even imagine Asian person playing the role. Isn't that strange? Like how brainwashed, like the media really can make, even just our younger generations like that.
I mean, that's the power of media, film and television, right? At what age was this like really young. When like, like middle school. Is that where you're talking about high school ?
This is when I was like, I mean, like kind of early highs, like 13, 14.
Okay. It does have a huge influence. When you were a kid, did you guys watch any Asian films, like Korean films or Hong Kong movies or Taiwan movies or Chinese movies? Did you do any, are Japanese films? Did you guys watch any of that?
You know, it's, I mean, that kind of brings up an interesting question because I mean the answer's no, but then it does make me. I feel like there's a generational thing, right? Where. Being proud to be an Asian American in my parents' generation. You know, they, they moved here when they're very young, yada, yada, it meant something different than what it means now. Like to be proud Asian American. Right. I almost felt like in our parents' generation, the narrative that was kind of more pushed was you're a proud Asian American, when you can show that you have successfully assimilated. I speak like white Americans, you have the same jobs as white Americans. You can socialize with white Americans on the same level and cultural level and stuff. And I feel like now it's like, no, we should be accepted for, you know, the beauty. Right. And the differences in our cultures as Asian Americans. In a way, I don't know if it was subconscious or conscious, but my parents. They took me to Korean school to learn Korean, but they never spoke it at home unless they didn't want us to know anything, know what they're talking about. They spoke perfect English. They never actually did do that. Like they never really said, Oh, you should watch you know, these Korean films or these Chinese films or these like Asian films. It was more just like we should also be included in this American narrative. Right. We should just see faces that look like us, but just replace them and these American stories as opposed to, Oh, let's explore what it would look like to actually accept and be welcoming of these different cultural nuances in Asian in Asian-Americans who might be more like might've come here more recently who might embrace the Asian culture more? My parents didn't really didn't really push it on me or show me those things, or they didn't like prioritize that and you know, my friends aren't going to because they don't know. I just was completely like out of that cultural space when I was younger.
Tell me cause you mentioned you caught the acting bug when you were in college. How did that happen? Because Berkeley I didn't even feel that there was much of a drama program or performing arts. The only things that I saw on a regular basis was the acapella group
Yes, that I got rejected from so that's a sore spot. No, but but then I, I joined the jazz singer group, so that was okay. No, I'm just but actually there was an Asian American theater group there. Yeah, rice or something. It was called Theater Rice. I have to credit them so much because it was actually pretty groundbreaking in a way. Right. They created an Asian American theater group that was actually well-respected and well-known among Asian Americans on the campus. You know, undergrads on the campus and we did films. We did comedy sketches. I owe a lot actually to that experience because it made me realize it was the first time, you know, I was cast as a lead in like a very short, in a short film and I was like, wait a second. We can actually see ourselves on the screen. Like this is insane. It was such a different experience than I think you could ever get at any just. Plain theater group out of college because I, I don't really think back then. Not that it was so long ago, but like they would have been like, yeah, let's cast Asian-Americans in leads, right. And these films and things like that and these theater productions. But that's kinda how I got into it is because theater rice allowed Asian Americans to see themselves. And actually embrace themselves in this way, right. In this performative kind of way. And yeah, I actually have to give a huge thanks and shout out to them because they're honestly, they're doing a lot of really, really good work over there.
What kind of work was it? Were you guys performing originals that someone in the program would write? Was all originals then, you guys weren't doing like Romeo and Juliet.
No. And that was what's so fricking fun about it too. Right? It's like these we're writing our own roles and like actually some of the most talented people. We're a part of the improv group and we had an improv group. And and, and you would have never known that you could have so much talent in an improv group. Like these people, actually, one of them did actually end up going to like studying here and the Groundlings and so forth and went at a pretty high level. But like, there was actually so much talent in that small group. You know, that you just wouldn't expect if you weren't exposed to it.
Yeah. And are there any famous alumni from that group?
You know, there was a Caucasian lady who was there before me, like a year before me. And she was actually the host. So that was interesting. She joined theater rice. Oh my God. Jason you're. So taking me back and I'm having like, Experiences there that actually, when you look at it, you're like, Holy crap. That happened. So actually a year before I joined, there was a, this Caucasian girl who was part of theater, rice, like one of actually two Caucasian girls, part of it. And she was the lead opposite of this Asian guy in the short film. And that's the short film I saw that I was like, Oh wow, this is such, it's such a cool group. And she actually is now in Hollywood and I believe she is doing some writing. Or some producing in the industry right now. That's cool. Yeah, it is cool. But nothing, no one like who's, you know like star power, not yet.
So after college what did you want to do and how did you get into Hollywood?
Very slowly. But no, I I, after college I wanted to pursue acting or, you know, creed and I've always been creative.
That's cool. So you always knew that, like you didn't do some other career and then.
Oh, no, I didn't always know that like, but I was, I was always creative. Like when I was younger, I thought I wanted to be a painter and an artist. And then someone told me like some wise person was like, Hey, do you want to be out in the streets? And I was like, probably not as an eight year old. And he's like, mom and mom play that. What was it? Your mom, actually a family friend or a business friend. Like it was someone who worked with my parents, like, you know, in the magazine business. And he was like, Hey, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I was like, this eight year old kid, I'm like, I want to be an artist. And he was like, fuck, you want to live on the streets? And I'm like, no. And he's like, then you should probably change like your dreams. And so that kind quashed that, and then I played violin. And then I was singing and then I wanted to sing. And then, so it's like a long kind of, it kind of just led me to the whole acting writing thing. But I've always been like creative oriented. I just never wanted to admit it to myself because I never wanted to be. I think in part, in my parents' eyes as being like. Which is weird, cause I started a magazine, but I'm being like that person, who's going to sacrifice everything and risk, you know, their like comfy lifestyle in order to pursue some pipe dream. I never wanted it to be looked at like that because I felt like that would be so vulnerable to say, Hey, we want to be on a stage or I want to be on a screen or I want to write for this screen. You know, and yes, I can do it being who I am as you know and having UC Berkeley degree and so forth. It was a scary thing to admit to myself, but I've always wanted to be doing things creatively. And then it wasn't until a couple of years, you know, of just taking classes after I graduated and telling my parents, Hey, it's just a hobby. To make them feel better about it, that I finally admitted to myself and to them this is something that I want to be serious about whether or not. It happens whether or not I make it and everything. It's something that if I do not pursue and I do not, you know, explore, I will regret for the rest of my life. And it had to be that extreme, you know, like I had to be led by this picture of myself on my death bed being like, Whoa, like, you know, when I look back on my life, what is the one thing that I regretted? And I didn't want to say, you know, I should've followed my heart, I should've followed my dreams. But I never did because I was because I was too scared and I was too chicken shit. I never wanted to get to that point. And I eventually found the courage to admit it, you know, and then my parents didn't love it. Yeah, they, didn't not like it actually, which is strange again, cause they had a magazine, but yeah, it was a little bit of a tough time, but I got through it and they finally, you know, obviously accepted it .
They probably knew how challenging it would be right. They were fearful for you having to go through that type of challenge, right? The hurdles that exist.
You're actually right. I think, you know because my father was a successful lawyer before he started the magazine. You know, it was one of those things where he went into this career that he was really, really successful. He did so well for himself. He was like, I'm unstoppable. And then he starts a magazine and then it was incredibly hard, like who starts a magazine with Asian-American faces all over it at that time. This is in the late eighties. And and they went through some, a lot of hardship actually to get that going. And they probably did not want to see me have to go through the same thing that they went through, you know, so you're right.
Have you seen, have, do they still have like archives of the magazine? Have you seen it?
Oh, yeah, I do. Yeah, I have,
I would love to see that someday. That's just being like like you should do like a, like take those old issues and make like a poster or something out of it, you know?
Oh yeah. I mean I mean they have, I mean, I think actually you would be interested in looking at some of the images because the images for back then were so groundbreaking, like, so, okay. Like, you know, when CRAZY RICH ASIANS, like how, you know, people clapped and stuff, when they like zoomed down on like, I forgot the actor's name his abs or something. And they were like, finally, like Asian men can be objectified screen. So like, if you look at some of these magazines, like there is some very bold sort of like bold images, right. Where, and I don't mean to be crass or sound anti-feminist whatever, but bold images where there's these like really good looking Asian men. And they're, you know, being, you know, surrounded by, you know, really good-looking white women and Asian women, and it's just like these images. I mean, this is back in the late 1980s. Like you never saw things like that. Right. So, yeah, it's interesting.
I would love to see it. Do you know how far in terms of distribution, like, was it a local thing statewide or did it go like around the nation?
It was, I believe it was like Los Angeles. Cause back then also where we're Asian Americans. So it's like LA was the biggest. And then also I think probably New York, I don't quite, I don't fully remember, but I remember, you know, going into the grocery store here, like here and then seeing it. Yeah. And, and actually it was a few years ago now a few years ago, maybe more than a few years ago, but there was actually this guy who Was the next door neighbor to us and he was a photographer. He was like a pretty well known photographer. And he met, had met my parents and my parents went over to his place and they saw a picture of the magazine hanging somewhere or somewhere in his house. And they were like, Where did you get that? He was like, Oh yeah, like I was just such a weld. It was just a beautiful, like photography. Like I just saved this. And it was like, Oh, that was our magazine. And it was like this random white photographer. Yeah. So that was, that was kind of interesting. So I don't really have that many memories from that actually back in the day when the magazine was being published.
What was it called?
So the women version was called face F a C E, and then the ma like the, not the men's version, but you know, the normal, the kind of like editor, like like opinion pieces and things like that. It was called trans Pacific
transpacific. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Wow. You'll have to do like an archive of it, like scan it and all this kind of stuff. No, I, I wonder if it's in the library or some of them must have it. We have to find this. I'm going to Google it for a little bit.
I don't know if it was, it was like back in before internet age, but yeah, you'll probably find some images.
I'm wondering like the LA public library, you know . Yeah. I'll have to check it out. And so what was your start in acting like?
Oh, yeah. It was me finally getting a manager. She's actually a very nice woman. Getting a manager who Oh, no, sorry. It was I actually produced this tiny, tiny webisode. It was one webisode. And I produced this thing. I acted in it. I cast some of my friends in it, and again, it was like a romantic comedy of course, with Asian American leads. And this was like back in 2011. And then I cut some footage from it and I made a reel out of it. I sent it to some managers, the manager got back to me and was like, Oh, like, you know, I think you have so much potential. And she sent me on a whole bunch of auditions. And this is a big mistake because. I was not ready to go on those auditions. I was not ready to be in an audition room. I was not ready to be, you know, going out for like series regulars for some of these things. And I think I kind of jumped the gun and I didn't realize like how much more experience and preparation you need to be able to do that kind of thing. But that's kinda how I got eased into official Hollywood. Right. But that's, you know, after really trying to figure out how do you even get into this? How do you even audition for something? It was all very, very foreign to me.
But the way you talk about it seems like it almost happened so casually . Cause it sounds like you shot a short and then some talent rep saw you and then put you on auditions. It sounds almost like a, like if I was in my twenties, that sounds like you're making it right. You're making moves.
Yes. If I was like, if, if my preparation and my experience, but I was so new to understanding it, all of that. I was stupid. Right. Cause like I shot myself in the foot. You could say, because I wasn't adequately prepared for the opportunities that she actually was able to get from me in the beginning. And so I think that's one thing that people don't understand is that it's not just about getting the opportunities. It's about being super prepared and being and being able to meet the opportunity where it actually is. Right. As opposed to like, Oh, someone's just going to discover me because they like, you know, the way I speak or they like the way I look or something, you know, it's not it's most of the times, not like that, I would say right. At least that's never been my experience at all.
What were the major learnings that you had from that time? Cause it sounds like you had, you had to face a lot of rejection or a lot of challenges.
Yeah. If I'm being honest, you make it sound like I got into this and it was pretty easy. It wasn't like the only reason why I made that webisode was because I was so incredibly lost. I felt so dejected and so hopeless and I didn't know how to do, like I wanted to make and I wanted to create so badly, you know, like we did in Theater Rice but I couldn't. And so I've scrounged up like 300 bucks and shot this thing. And so it actually came out of feeling really, really lost and really bad about myself that I even created that thing. And so it was not easy whatsoever. I remember going on auditions for like USC films, like, you know, like student shorts and stuff. And I was like, where I can't even, and now looking back, I know that it was the right thing to do, but I was like, I can't even believe, like I spent so much time trying to get cast in. And I'm not saying this in a bad way, but like a non-paying student short, that's probably going to be really shitty. Right. But I would actually stress out about that. And it was like, spent so much time just trying to get those student shorts and even when they were shot and I did it, like they didn't even get made. So I got nothing really other than a little bit of the experience from it. So it's actually very difficult right. Yeah, it was, but basically like, it's not just about getting the opportunities it's really about, I think the big misconception that people have about this industry is that the opportunities make all the difference. Right. But if you're not prepared, then, like it doesn't matter what opportunity comes your way.
What I take out of it is actually when you had difficult times or faced certain challenges, you were very entrepreneurial and that was kind of your a way to create action and to create, like you were saying, you're a creator. I find that is very important. Very few people do it, and I think you have to do it right. Because of so many reasons. Not only is it good for you psychologically to , if you're a depressed, just do something to distract yourself. Maybe you didn't get some opportunities to use because you weren't prepared. And this is a way through creating is that you prepare yourself and you get experience. And then also you're reaching out and you're using that creativity muscle and you're doing something. There is a very much of a similarity of why I want to, just to this podcast, right. I have no grand hopes of becoming Joe Rogan, but if I can just do something productive with my time and have interesting discussions with folks about just life or whatever it's also a form of creation and we can all see what we can do about it. Right. But yeah, because this industry is so difficult. I think that's one of the things that people really don't understand, even very smart people. When I was in business school, for example I decided that I wanted to learn finance and very seriously. And so I went to Wharton, which is a very serious finance school. Like most of the kids that get into Wharton. They are from a finance background. And when I, when I told them I was from the entertainment industry and from the creative side of the entertainment industry, the stereotype or the immediate notion that they had, there was like, Oh my God, you just had fun. You know, like, you're going, it's like ENTOURAGE, you were going to parties. Or, you know, you're just hanging out with celebrities. Or, you're just having fun, like lunches or whatever. And in reality actually, cause after I graduated and even in my internships, I did finance and kinships and I was like, well, finance internships are hard, but in a different way. And I would say actually working in entertainment is. Just as hard, maybe harder. And the reason why it may be harder is because in finance, at least you're working those hours, like say, you know, I'm probably working like 80 to 80 hours a week. That's minimum, but in entertainment, for sure, we're working 80 hours a week for sure. But you also don't get paid. Like you're paid in finance and finance. Anyone out of even undergrad is making six figures, but in entertainment, the crazy thing is like, you're basically on poverty wage when you're trying to get into the entertainment industry. Right. So you really have to think through things. It's just it's so it's yeah, it is, it is so hard. But I, I commend you so much for being a creator, right? So not just continuing to audition, but doing something and creating a short, creating a web series, finding a way to make that happen because that's also what we have to do as that's currently the state of affairs for Asian Americans who want to make Hollywood.
Yeah. You know, it's funny, you just said something. Well, first of all, thank you. You know, for me it was one of those things where it's like, I wish I didn't have to do this. Like, have we shouldn't really? But, you know, actually I interviewed Kim Iversen, she has a political podcast on YouTube and we were just talking and she's into horoscopes. Right. So she asked me what my, when I was born and not yada yada. And she was like, Hmm, For you, you know, you're just, when it comes to work and success, you're going to have to really work at all the success you get. Like, you're just, you're not one of those people. Who's just going to get lucky. Like you are going to have to sweat to earn every single thing you do. And I'm like, and she's like, but for me, I think I'm a lucky sign and I'm a lucky sign and I'm like, That sounds about, right.
Did she give you any Tips or what is there? Is there, is there a pot, is there a pot of gold at the end of the end of that rainbow?
No, she was just like bringing me, like, she was just basically telling me the news that yeah. Pageant you can't be lazy. Okay. Cause nothing's going to be given to you, so you gotta work your butt off. So thank you so much, Kim Iversen for that prediction. I really appreciate that.
I want to know if it's going up. Did you ask her if it's going to work out, maybe, maybe she can't tell you that.
Oh, I, I don't think she can tell she, she was able, she's able to predict things like, okay, this is scary, but like things like when someone's going to die, I didn't want to go there. See, I didn't want to go there, but she's not, I don't think she's able to predict like, those kinds of things, just like tell you more about yourself, kind of a thing. And also apparently predict when someone's gonna die. So.
Wow. Crazy. All right, well changing the topic. You mentioned romantic comedies and you have like a strong interest to create more of those and KAT LOVES LA as I think a great example of something that can be really refreshing. What other stories do you want to tell? What are you, what kind of lead characters do you want to see?
I guess this goes back to like it does kind of go back to KAT LOVES LA, and then the roots, like my roots, which is look, I like, I like romantic. I like, I like creating and writing things that I personally. Would love to go see like I, and, and, you know, my interest is romantic comedies, my interests are, you know, those those films that like touch you deeply, or that are like family oriented or, you know, films that make you feel good. Right. And make you reflect. And I would just love to see more of those films, but told from a different perspective . And now it goes back to like, why did KAT LOVES LA I just wanted to be a relatable simple romantic comedy. But then people are like, Oh, And these people are Asian and it's not like it could have cast anyone in those roles because it is specifically Asian American, but you know, it, wasn't the point of the film. It's not the point of the show, the series, whatever. It's just like, Oh, I'm taking on this ride into this person's life. And I relate to them and I enjoy it. And you know, I come out of it feeling good. You know, but, Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. And I actually like, kind of learned a little bit about Asian America, or I was able to see someone else's face represented in these stories and maybe everyone is kind of. You know, deep down kind of the same, we all share the same humanity. Those are the kinds of stories that I can want to continue seeing are those, like the stories that we're all familiar with, but we just have not seen told in that way before the specific environment or what have you.
You can already carve out a great niche, just focusing on romantic comedies because clearly audiences love them and coming out of the pandemic, I think people are going to want to see something a little bit more fun.
Well, hopefully, I mean, maybe, hopefully I can rise to the challenge, but yeah.
I think it's such a simple thing that you said, and I think that's why the things that you write or have made, I enjoy them because, it is also my belief that you don't have to reinvent the wheel of movie making or television and you don't always have to explore some trauma or some dark subject matter. I think a lot of like growing up my favorite films were. You know INDIANA JONES, BACK TO THE FUTURE, DEAD POET'S SOCIETY and oh yes. And here's a really refreshing version. What is like, what does that look like if it was either set somewhere else, like, you know, in Asia or it had some Asian leads, right? It would look very different. I recently rewatched the Michelle Yeoh was in a bond movie. And she wasn't the bond girl. They called her the bond girl, but she was almost like this the partner to Pierce Brosnan. The movie was TOMORROW NEVER DIES. And she played this kick ass Chinese spy that teamed up with Pierce Brosnan to solve that movie, but it was so refreshing to see that because they actually did it in a pretty decent way back to dragon lady or something. No, she was this awesome kick-ass, you know, secret agent and she was really cool. And so, you know, it's so rare to get a representation like that, but I think that was like a very memorable movie. And I think that movie did quite well. Out of the three movies the Pierce Brosnan did for James Bond. And so that's just an example, you know it's something like that, but it's, you know, more authentic you're showing a different layer. Right. And it's very, it, it brings, it's also good for the story. So when people don't see, I don't see enough of it. So clearly people don't get it yet. So I think that's where we have opportunities because we just have to keep pushing forward , showing that people that this can be done. Simple though. That's why it kind of, it's kind of a little mind-boggling because it's such a simple idea. It's not really, like if I like, in my view, it's not really even anything novel. But it's like such low hanging fruit that. In Hollywood, they still don't get right. Really.
It really is. Well, in that, that example that you just brought up, it wasn't like. So and I don't know if you share the same view is like you know, she did, the person had to be from China, right? Like she had to be Chinese to play that role. And so, but she was like represented in this this full body, like interesting way. Right. I think. The thing that makes that I want to see more of, to be a little bit more specific is that I don't just want to see the interchangeable of like, okay, now you have an Asian person thrown into that supporting role or, you know, whatever. I want to see that it was written specifically for like an Asian American. Right. I want it, I want to unders I want to see those little cultural things like references here and there. I wanna see the specific specificity of it. But without it being the point of the film, without it being like, and this is an Asian film and you need to respect like every single, like piece of culture in this film, because like, that is the point we're trying to educate you people NO like, I don't want it to be hit over. I don't want to be hit over the head with it, but I do want it to be specific specific enough that we are actually learning and being brought into you know, some nuances of culture of like Asian America, for instance.
Thinking back to that role, it is quite groundbreaking because she didn't even put on, she, she was from China, but she didn't have to put on some Chinese accent. Michelle Yeoh just spoke like Michelle Yeoh like in real life, she's from Malaysia, I think because of some British, you know, kind of colonial kind of history there, she has a slight British accent to her English, but her English is perfect. If any accent it's a more of a British accent. So it was just really cool that that's how she played it. She didn't have to. Speak in Chinese dialogue and all this stuff.
Like I hate it when they always make you justify your Asian-ness like in some really like cheesy or phony way, right? Like you have to have a certain kind of accent. You have to have certain kinds of like inclinations or ticks and like very superficially done. Yeah. Not authentically done.
Tell me about how you got into writing. I kind of know how, but I guess walk me through, like, because I think it's such a hard thing in my view. You said you were, you were writing since you were a child, but how did you start becoming a screenwriter?
Oh, I mean, again, it was out of, you know, it's interesting in this interview, I've realized that a lot of things that I have done have come out of pure rejection, hardships, dejection feeling of a total like, you know, like lost or alienation, I guess, to some degree, but I just like to write ever since I was young, I love to just write little vignettes. Like I even, I have a tumbler that no one knows about where I would just like to write little vignettes about how I felt about a moment and I love. I like am obsessed with this idea of having like a videographer, just follow people around and like, you know, capture moments from their lives. And like and I love to relive memories and things like that and like certain moments in my life. And so I was like, what other way can I do that? But just write on, write, write, write about them. And so I would always do that when I was younger, but I never ever thought, Oh, I want to write a screenplay. Like it was never. Writing writing was never for that purpose really is more to just a self-expression. And I got into screenwriting out of really sheer necessity to some degree because again, right. Going back to. You know, the feelings of like alienated or just like lost when I did KAT LOVES LA, right? So I, I did KAT LOVES LA out of a period of total depression. I wrote KAT LOVES LA out of a period of total depression, of feeling like I really want to create, I really want to make something, but I'm not given the opportunity or I'm not getting the opportunities to do that. So I had this idea percolating in my head of this romantic comedy between, you know, the struggling actress. Right. Because you write from what, you know, and I was like, I mean, this is my first stab at writing. Of course, I'm just going to write from what I know. And and I was just like, Oh, but then, and it was, it came actually a lot of the dynamics from the first season actually came out of real interactions I've had like, not completely, but like little snippets of conversations I've had. With random people I would encounter, and I just, like, I sat down and I was like, I'm just going to write this thing. I'm just gonna like, like vomit on a page, kind of a process. And I spent two days writing all day. Like I just sat on my butt and I just started writing whatever came to my head. And then that was the first season of KAT LOVES LA. And then I thought to myself, Oh, well that was fun, but I'm never going to be able to shoot this thing. And I I met someone in my acting class, the guy who played the other lead. And I was like, you know what, actually, this guy kinda reminds me of the person that I'm I wrote, you know, the lead actor I wrote. And so I was like, Hey, like, Do you want to like, maybe read this thing and see if you kind of like it and he read it and he was like, I love this. Like, we need to get this made. And and then that just led to us crowdfunding for it. And basically just like, you know, a first of a lot, I, first thing I really wrote and I had to produce it. Cause I didn't know any producers who would want to produce something like this. And we just kind of had to figure the whole thing out. And that was like, that was how I got into writing. I'm going to be, and, and then I, I did that.
So that was the first like subsistent thing, besides your shorts and vignettes, that was the first substantive thing you wrote.
Oh, yeah. Like I never written anything beyond like, you know, 10 pages or something. The other one that was 10 pages was that webisode. I did a long time ago before that. And it was only one tiny webisode. And then KAT LOVES LA was really the first stab at like, you know, let's try and like have this, like let's try and continue it beyond just one episode. Then I did that and it received a lot of, a lot of good reception from, you know, obviously Asian American community. Cause CRAZY RICH ASIAN hadn't come out . So people were saying, this is groundbreaking, thank you so much for making this so I can show my kids. Like we need more representation like this. And then and then out of that, people were like, Hey, someone came up to me, we were like, you have to do a season two. You have to like all donate a whole bunch of money and I'll get you money. You just have to do it. And I was like, well, I don't know. It was just so much work. It was so hard. But then. That led to a season two. And then through publishing both of those things in a very small Asian American community, people came up to me and people found me and they were like, you know Hey, like I really liked what you did. Maybe you should write other things too. Like there's a, you know, and they would like give me ideas of other things I could write. And then that kind of led to how we met actually really. Right. Cause then it was, yeah. I find that so fascinating that that was the first thing you wrote because I mean, there's plenty of screenwriters that I've met in Hollywood, that their screenplays are just screenplays still. So, I mean, again, I would say, even though you said you take these actions from rejection or challenges or a dark moment, I think that's a very powerful way for you to have in a healthy way also to deal with that. I almost feel like because of you got, it made you almost like should teach like a webinar or something like that. Cause there's plenty of people who don't even know what to do. Like if they had an idea, how you would write, do you read a screenwriting book ? Do you take a webinar? Do you, pay money to go to UCLA or USC to take an online course? Or all of these things. People overthink it and I think you're just, you're just, you're just like I'm doing it. You know,
Here's the thing, Jason I've realized, this is my strength and this is my huge weakness. Okay. So I'm going to be humble about that is that I am like an incredibly, and maybe you've perceived this from me to some degree. I'm sure you have. I'm an incredibly impatient human being. Like when I want to see something being done, like. I'm going to do it, or I need like it to happen or I will probably get it'll, it'll just like really like weigh on me. So I don't have the patience to know how to properly write a script. I don't have the patience to spend 16 weeks at UCLA. Tell it like them telling me how to format a fucking script. I don't have the time. I don't have the patience. Like I'm not gonna sit there. I'm not going to be able to get through the whole thing. I just need to figure it out. Like, I feel like that is, that was my process from start to finish is Paget no one else ain't going to do this for you. You don't have the money to hire someone to do it. You don't have to tying to hire someone to do it. You got to do it yourself. So like, I even taught myself how to edit the entire first season and second season, because I didn't have the money to do it. Like I was out of pocket. The first season I was out of pocket, I think like, 10 grand. Oh, wow. Through everything, because it took so long to film because you know, it was low budget and we had to get locations and all that. And I was like, crap. Like I, if I hire an editor to edit this whole thing, it's going to cost thousands. And so I like Paget it had got to learn how to edit. So I didn't even take an editing course. I just figured it out in my brain, I was just like, all right, you're going to be shit at this. You're not going to do it properly, but you're going to stitch this thing together. And, and I just figured it out. Like, I didn't take any fricking classes to do any of it I was just like, what do you need? Do it, you know, just do it.
I love that because my, the way I approached things I need to Google it, or I need to look, I need to look at YouTube. I need to go take a class. I was, I love how it's like some other way.
Look at you like doing like this podcast, right. I look at you doing these things and you are so freaking meticulous and well-researched, I'm like, I wish I had the patience like Jason, I wish I had, I wish I had the ability to sit down and listen to someone tell me how to do something or read some instructions and like properly, because I guarantee you, like, when I've done all this stuff, I have done none of it right. I have done none of it efficiently. I have just done it.
Well, I think, I mean, I guess we can both love each other. Like I would say like, In my point of view, it's you doing is life? Right. And doing is who who's to say, what is right or what's the way to do it. Right.
I'm doing this totally wrong.
Right. But who are the professionals there that they're just the ones that have slightly more experienced or have reached a level of influence, right? Like you see people all the time that now nowadays the ones that are celebrated are the ones that are breaking the rules. I would say, like, for example, if Elon Musk. If someone told them like, Oh, you're like, you don't know how to make cars. And he believed that then yeah, we would not have Tesla today, but he's like, well, I'll figure it out. Right? Like he has no business making. Cars, let alone EV cars, right?
The most flattering kind of ish. Like I have literally ever heard about myself. I'll keep it. I'll thank you.
You're going to be the Hollywood Elon Musk.
Oh my God. Oh God, if only.
I was wondering one thing like cause it sounds like you've had a lot of trials and tribulations. What's something that you do for self care or for mental wellbeing. What's your way to deal with stress.
Disclaimer, I am not the healthiest person in the world. In fact, I'm probably very unhealthy in certain ways. I watch, I chill out and I watch mindless garbage television.
What are your, what are your favorites?
You're scared. You're like, Oh God, do I really want to ask this question?
I am curious though. I'm totally curious.
Okay, so right now, Oh my God, this is actually kind of embarrassing, but whatever. Okay. It's fine. I watch all the reality TV on like, you know, on Netflix. Oh no. I mean, some of it is done well, so I did watch all of BLING EMPIRE. What, look, I know someone from it, so I'm not like it was, it was okay.
I'm glad, I guess this. I mean, Hey, if the Kardashians can exist, I mean, bring on like the BLING EMPIRE.
Speaking of Kardashians. I did think, I think I kind of watched like the first four seasons of that a long time ago. But I I I'm currently watching GILMORE GIRLS and and I am also watching a TED LASSO, which someone I love. Oh my God. Can we like, okay. So like, can we get those writers to write a TED LASSO type of film and then put like, Make it, I mean, they're probably white writers, but like make it specific to like, Asian-Americans like, honestly it is so well-written right. It's well-written it's interesting. It's heartfelt. It's like, it's funny. It's it's so good. It's such a good show.
I think you just have to do that, you know? You have to find some writers and we have to put together, we have to put together a writer's room or something like that. I mean, that's an exact, that's a great example, you know, what does that look like if you know you know, cause you hear about I've just heard about that. There is this NCAA coach, she's like the first basketball coach that is Very high level he's like Filipino American. Right. And and so it would be interesting. Right. And what what an interesting premise, maybe he's dropped off. I don't know. Where is he dropped off so he could be dropped there. TED LASSO, already did Europe. So that feels like it's done.
No, but like Jason, like it's like, but it should be premised around potentially. I don't know if this is going too far, but like, right. So like if, if like the Asian part of him is being misconceived by someone and that's why they're hiring him, but he completely breaks all of those stereotypes and does not live up to the expectations.
Right? Like they bring him into Britain. To teach badminton or something, right.
Yeah. Right. But that's, that's interesting too, is like playing on the stereotypes, but also breaking them at the same, like exposing them and breaking them at the same time. That would actually be if it's really well done, like the way TED LASSO is, that would be a great, great show.
Maybe there's an interesting way about it. You know, one story that I really loved recently, so there's this volleyball coach from China. Her name is Lang Ping. They just made a movie about her. So they made a movie about her and made a lot of money in China. And then they also made a documentary about her and her life has fascinating because she was on the Chinese volleyball team. That was the first one to win the gold medal for China. So it was huge breakthrough. And then what happened was she got an opportunity to be the coach of the U S women's volleyball team. She accepted that job, which was a little bit controversial on both sides. Then what happened was she then took the US volleyball team to the Olympics. And I think they got silver. I don't think they got gold, but it was silver. And it was an amazing achievement because she was the first one to come from China. And then also reach that height for another country as a coach. And then to cap off the story, what happened was she then returned to China after she helped the U S when silver and she helped China win another gold medal. But this time as the coach.
Do you know, what's do you know, what's great about that? Like that great about this, Jason, is that like you are so, like, this is one of the things that I hope you do more on your podcasts, but like, you know, about all of these. Like what some people would think are obscure stories, right? Like general American would think are obscure stories that people, you know, just don't hear about. And you know, about all of these stories that are really fascinating and like none of them have been told, none of them have been touched. And honestly, if these people were like Caucasian, Like everyone would be like out trying to make like bio pics about all of these different kinds of interesting people. Right. But no one has done.
Look, how many movies have you heard of all the movies that are gonna happen around the gut? The guys who did Wall Street Bets, there was like five Wall Street Bets movies in the works. It's crazy. So, yeah, totally.
I mean, people jump on this shit when it's all a bunch of white people.
Yeah. I mean that, and that's why I feel that even though, you know, one of the phrases that I, I like to say recently is that I know I'm not valued in Hollywood, but I know I have value. Right. And I know that's why, even though, yeah, it's a tough place for us now, but I know that there's so many opportunities because there's these amazing stories. And even if someone else now, if even if no one else besides the two of us, think the stories are amazing, that's fine. But I know they are. So it's about finding the way to get them made. Right. So I think like maybe this volleyball way in the TED LASSO kind of approach, maybe kind of interesting. Yeah. I mean, but you're, so it's a female and it's a, it would be like a female version. Right. And so it's really a really interesting way to also play upon cause I feel even though America is supposed to be more free and more women's equality. I actually, I think we've discussed this. I find so many things in Asia actually. Especially in China where women are given just as much opportunity.
Yeah, that is like a whole other thing. That's a whole other thing. I mean,
really, really interesting to explore in a TV series in a comedic way, because you don't want that. So it would be so sad to like talk about it in a serious way.
Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, I agree like that. Oh man. That's something definitely to think about, to chew on. And also when I come back on your podcast, like we can, you know, discuss, I mean, there's just so much to discuss around gender, like, you know, and everything in, in this, like when it comes to like, I don't know how you, what do you, what's that thing where you so basically like when it comes to Asian-America, right, like it's a very different kind of dynamic when you were thinking about like representation. Cause right now it's all about like women leads and it's all about all of that. But like, when you think about Asian America, it's, it's a little bit different, like, right. Like I think there's a little bit of a different perspective.
Do you mean affirmative action or do you mean like stuff?
Like, I mean, like, you know, when you talk about masculinity femininity, all that stuff in Asian-American representation, right? It's like flipped it's flipped, right? It's it's like
I find your, one of the few people that are willing to say that. I feel like most people, most Asian Americans, aren't willing to say that.
Just not, but see, that's why this topic is so juicy because like, for me, it's so obvious, but so then I have to, and then also a lot of Asian Americans also aren't talking about it. So I'm like, is it because you don't see it as, because you don't want to see it as, because of your also brainwashed, is it because you're afraid to admit it? Is it because like what, like, you know, there's so many layers into this whole topic of discussion. It's just, I mean, we can't, we have to tackle that in another episode, but
we'll do like a whole episode on it. We would have to like do it in a comedic way. Otherwise, no one in one was it'd be like, so it would be so sad. We would have to, like, after, if we did in a serious way, like afterwards, we would have to go happy hour
no, I know. Or something like that. It is actually like actually hitting upon that topic is really the core. I feel like a lot of the misrepresentation,
I think I'll like a quick idea that I have a quick reaction to have to that is that I mean, it's funny because I don't see myself as a non-conformist, but people have told me that throughout my life, like when I was in college. Yeah. When I was in college one of my bosses actually told me you are someone who doesn't like the establishment and you don't like the rules. And I was like, what are you talking about? Look at me. I'm like a straight A student. I am in the business school.
Totally
see that though. Jason, I can totally see that. I know like you were going to ask me, like, what are some impressions of each other were, but like, I was going to say that, like, you know, I felt like you are very sharp. You're very discriminating, not in a bad way, but like, you're, you're like, you know, you're. You're sharp you're making judgments about things, right? You're like, I thought that you were actually very intimidating which I don't feel now, but I will say that, getting to know you more, I get that because I, and that is actually one of your strengths and why I really like, you know, getting to know you more and like working with you is because you, you do actually, I feel like push the boundaries of things, right? Like you're, you're very aware of where the boundaries are. I feel like you're hyper aware of where the boundaries are. Sometimes I'm not aware of that. But then you're hyper aware of it, but then you're, you're like always willing to like step out of it a little bit or explore stepping out of it a little bit and sometimes leave feeling like you almost like you really want to push out of it, like, you know, I, so I do get that from you that you don't really want to follow the rules, even though you know exactly where the rules are and you will be able to follow them if you need to. But you know, on certain things, you're not willing to compromise.
That's interesting you say that because when that, when my boss said that to me at the time, I had such a sharp reaction because I was like, what, who are you to say this? And it sounds like, it sounds like you just sound like a horse. It sounds like a horrible thing, you know? And, and then only recently have I realized, well, it's not so horrible and maybe it is true and it could be a strength. And the reason why I thought of that is because that's what I've noticed. I think like, so many people just take what the media or what is the popular perception among their friend group. And I've never really cared about that. No, I do. But I do want to be in that popular group, but I don't really care for it. And so that's why I'm okay.
I noticed too, is that,
that's what I was going to say too, is that you recognize, I feel like you have this really like unique ability to recognize potential. And I know that that sounds kind of vague, but you have this unique ability to see something from like a different perspective and recognize its potential whereas the main stream would say no because of X, Y, and Z, because X, Y, and Z have always been the way it has been. You are being, you are able to see, okay, I know that X, Y, and Z is the way it's been, but actually this could become the new X, Y, and Z. So you don't like you don't that's you're not boxed in by the rules, right? You're not boxed in by the boundaries. You are able to step outside and see the potential of expanding the boundaries.
I'm taking my cues from hip hop, right? Like what you said when you were a kid and you loved hip hop, like I loved hip hop too. And the funny thing is like, Yeah, like hip hop, rock and roll. Those were the type of music that I loved and I love, and maybe it's that like, that's why I gravitated towards that because they're like, you know, so commercial. But they also want to break the boundaries a little bit, like mess things up a little, but those, but those things are like, They are like when people think like I have quite a problem when people categorize hip hop or R and B as like urban or black music. Right. Because I'm like, well, like, you know, just to let you know, like hip hop happens to be like the most popular music genre, I think in the U S if not the world. So that like black culture is culture, right? That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Well, like have this like weird way to think about it. And so like, yeah, sorry. That was a, it was a tangent, but I was reminded of it because I was like, you know, where, where do I see some of these ideas that are you know, that, that have that do sound a little bit off? But if you push at it, like it could be something. I think it was like, probably like when I was a kid and, you know, listening and reading. So that's one thing I like to read. I like to listen to a lot of hip hop and rock and roll, but then when I was a kid, I have also loved to read about these people. Like what they did, who they were, their interviews, like the things they said, how they thought, like, those are the people that I enjoyed reading, not like history, people, like I enjoyed reading about musicians and like reading their interviews. That's actually, that's actually my first entry point into entertainment was actually through music because I loved music when I was a kid
You are like,
you are in the right industry. I feel like because you, you are so interested and curious. I think that's the thing you're very curious about people's stories right. About stories in general. Like you're so inquisitive, like you'll send all these interviews and I'm like, how do you have mental energy to like actually consume all of this about so many different kinds of people and all of this stuff. I'm like, I mean, I just, right now, I just want to like turn on TED LASSO and like zonk out for the next few hours. So inquisitive. And you're so interested that, you know, you're able to see the potential of certain things that I feel like is lost on most people who are trying to be in this industry or whatever, you know?
Yeah. We have to be, we have to be tastemakers. I think we have to be, we have to be the tastemakers we have to curate. We have to find the stories that are worth that we think are worth sharing to the world. Right. So, all right, well, thanks for doing this. It was so nice. I'm actually really enjoying this. I have to say, like, I don't care if there's anyone that listens to this, but I think just the last episode with Kenny and then this with you, I've learned so much about you more than I that's what I enjoy. I like enjoy it. Like I already know you a little bit, but I enjoy learning about where you come from and like more deeply kind of what motivates you. And then I would say the other thing is like, I did not, I did not expect to learn a few things about myself today.
I will say that. What makes a good interview, right? Like, and I felt like I learned some things. I had some revelations about my own childhood and like some of my experiences that have been so crucial to making me who I am that I literally have never, I've taken for granted. I've never really given much thought to. So this was really valuable. Like I learned stuff
and I'll see where this goes and definitely we'll have you back and cause we have so much more to talk about.
Yes we do. Thank you so much. And I'll see you later.
Thanks for your time.
That was my discussion with the one and only Paget Kagy. I really appreciate your support. It means a lot to me. If you have any suggestions for the show please reach out to me on social media or via email. The email for this show is thelinsidershow@gmail.com. Feel free to reach out with any thoughts that you have, I will read them and I will take them into consideration. I really appreciate your time, your energy. I have just gotten this show on all the podcasting platforms. You will be able to listen to this show anywhere that you listen to podcasts and on your favorite podcasting app. I'm also putting this show on YouTube in it's full unedited episode. And I'm also gonna start experimenting with substack and putting this show on substack and seeing how that goes. Substack is a very interesting way to measure engagement with listeners and the audience. And also if there are people that want to support me to give that option as well. I will say that as I'm experimenting with substack, I'm not exactly sure yet what I'm going to be able to offer to people who pay for the subscription, but I will do my best . Some ideas that I have in mind is that I will do monthly giveaways once I get to more than 10 substack subscribers. I will also look into doing live events, for example, rooms on clubhouse with my guests on this show. And also a discord channel or Reddit channel, a Facebook page and being active and creating a community on that. Those are just some of my thoughts and if you have other thoughts or suggestions I'm all ears. In wrapping this up, I want to thank the guests on my show so far Kenny Leu Paget Kagy please follow them and be on the lookout for their work. They are super talented and they deserve your attention. I also want to thank my good friend, Jonder Ho for encouraging me to make this podcast and helping me think of the podcast name on our hikes. I will see you next time. I have many more guests up and coming, so be on the lookout every week every Monday, I'm going to be dropping a new episode. Thanks so much and stay tuned.